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Unless I'm missing something, روزگار is rüzgâr (or rüzgar) in modern Turkish (though it's pronounced 'ruzegâr' in Persian).modus.irrealis wrote:is it rüzgar or ruzigar?
I think you have a typo-- you wrote محدثان as *هحدثان.روایان اخبار و ناقلان آثار و هحدثان روزگار شویله روایت و بو یوزدن حکایت ایدرلر که
I think it should be "Latif Hoca Nasreddin Efendi" or possibly "Letif Hoca Nasreddin Efendi".Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin Efendi
I don't know about Ottoman spelling here specifically but in Persian, when the ezâfe (izafet) follows a long vowel it is sometimes marked with ی (as in روی آب ru-ye âb 'on the water'). When it follows words ending in 'e' (like خانه khâne) it may be written that way (خانهی بزرگ khâne-ye bozorg 'the big house') or with a hamze above the final he (خانهٔ بزرگ khâne-ye bozorg 'the big house') - there is no difference, it's just two different writing conventions. Aside from that, you just have to guess. It gets easier with time as you learn to predict where the ezâfe should go, at least in Persian.I have a few questions about the izafet. In terms of the spelling, one just has to realize that it's there? Are there any sort of clues, other than that things aren't in the normal Turkish order?
Yes, the ezâfe is used to link adjectives to nouns in Persian (ex. کتاب قرمز ketâb-e qermez 'the red book', with Turkish spelling it would be kitab-ı kırmız). Is rüzgar specifically translated as 'experienced' in this sentence? I would have thought 'muhaddisan-ı rüzgar' would translate as 'the hadith specialists of the age/era' rather than 'the experienced hadith specialists' - interesting how روزگار (which means time/era/epoch, at least in modern Persian) seemingly became 'experienced' in Ottoman Turkish and then 'wind' in modern Turkish!?Also the book glosses rüzgar here as experienced so I assume it's an adjective and I just want to confirm that the izafet is used even with adjectives, and not just noun + noun combinations?
Yep, you spelled it correctly and your explanation is also correct.Also, I think I asked something similar about the name Aladdin but for Nasreddin, there's the Arabic article in the middle right? And it's assimilated to the -d- because -d- is a sun letter?
eskandar wrote:Unless I'm missing something, روزگار is rüzgâr (or rüzgar) in modern Turkish (though it's pronounced 'ruzegâr' in Persian).
Yes, the ezâfe is used to link adjectives to nouns in Persian (ex. کتاب قرمز ketâb-e qermez 'the red book', with Turkish spelling it would be kitab-ı kırmız). Is rüzgar specifically translated as 'experienced' in this sentence? I would have thought 'muhaddisan-ı rüzgar' would translate as 'the hadith specialists of the age/era' rather than 'the experienced hadith specialists' - interesting how روزگار (which means time/era/epoch, at least in modern Persian) seemingly became 'experienced' in Ottoman Turkish and then 'wind' in modern Turkish!?
kalemiye wrote:Since I don't have a computer anymore, I don't have much time to post, therefore since any Ottoman Language book includes a "crash course" on Arabic and Persian grammar I decided to post pictures of the few pages in which the ezafe is explained: http://yfrog.com/n0dsc06325ejx (it in Turkish, but it's easy to read). If you need any other specific grammar point let me know and when I have time I will post it as well.
There is a typo, the first word of the second paragraph is spelled as: راویان
modus.irrealis wrote:It's just when I search google books for this specific phrase, I find both rüzgar and rüzigar (or with u), so since that's the Persian pronunciation maybe the Ottoman pronunciation was closer to it.
kalemiye wrote:To type circumflexes with a Turkish keyboard press shift + 3 and then the letter on which the circumflex will be placed .
They're joined in the book and I found that odd, so I separated them now.kalemiye wrote:Are you sure this two words (بلدکدنصکره) shouldn't me typed separated?
ایدر is read as "eder" this is also a typo: قول د قرار those were the only mistake I could find.
Is "eğer vermiş olaydı" an Ottoman Turkish construction, and if so what would the modern version be? Just "verseydi"?
I keep forgetting to ask. Why does the spelling of "hoca" have the elif in it? I can only find out that this goes back to Persian, but what significance does it have there?
hoca
AtebH, MEdeb xii hwāce yaşlı kimse, koca, bir saygı hitabı
~ Fa χwāca خواجه efendi, ağa, ulu ve saygıdeğer kimse, evin büyüğü, mal sahibi
● Karş. hüda.
__________
EŞKÖKENLİLER:
Fa χwāca: hoca, koca, kocaman
modus.irrealis wrote:
For "ise", here it's just used sort of like a conjunction, right, to join the two parts of the phrase?
kalemiye wrote:No, they are not supposed to have ye, but it the book was typed with an Arabic press then that's why it has it, but it's not important .
-imis its always "seems", afaik it never has the connotation of "must".
Mert wrote:Is it clear?
modus.irrealis wrote:
I meant "must" in something like
-- Emre burada değil = Emre's not here.
-- O halde evdeymiş = then he must be at home.
I thought you could say this, but is this incorrect then?
modus.irrealis wrote:
Your example is very clear, but I'm still not sure about the sentence above , since the "ise" comes after "var". How would you translate or rephrase the sentence?
I suppose you mean "varsa, var ise".
The "sa" and "ise" suffixes mean "if" there. Varsa means "if there is(are)"
Mert wrote:"-miş gives the meaning of hearing something from someone. "O halde evdeymiş" sounds weird. You must say like that: "O halde evde olmalı".
I suppose you mean "varsa, var ise".
The "sa" and "ise" suffixes mean "if" there. Varsa means "if there is(are)"
modus.irrealis wrote:
Even in the sentence "Akşehir'de bakardım ne kadar yıldızlar var ise bunda da o kadar var"?
At first I thought it was like how question word + -sa = -ever in English, and it would be something like "however many stars I would see in Akşehir, there are also that many here" but wouldn't that be something like
"Akşehir'de ne kadar yıldızlar bakarsam bunda da o kadar var"? I'm still not sure what's going on.
Mert wrote:"Akşehir'de bakardım ne kadar yıldızlar var ise, bunda da o kadar var"
"I used to look at how many stars there are in Akşehir. There are as many stars as here, too".
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