Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

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Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-09-29, 0:18

I came across "A reading book of the Turkish language" published in 1854 on google books and it has a number of what are meant to be easy texts involving Nasreddin Hoca and I thought I would try to go through them and then thought why not share what I do here -- and I'm going to have to ask a bunch of questions anyways.

Tonight I'll just post the introduction and my transliteration (which I wouldn't have been able to do if it weren't for google and there are points I'm still not sure on -- is it rüzgar or ruzigar? -- and I have no idea where to put circumflexes).

-----

لطایف خواجه نصرالدین افندي

راویان اخبار و ناقلان آثار و محدثان روزگار شویله روایت و بو یوزدن حکایت ایدرلر که


Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin Efendi

Raviyan-ı ahbar ve nakilan-ı asar ve muhaddisan-ı rüzgar şöyle rivayet ve bu yüzden hikayet ederler ki

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I was forced to do a bit of a crash course in Persian and Arabic to realize what some of these things are, and I'm okay with the Arabic broken plurals here and I learned that -(y)an is the Persian plural marker, but I have a few questions about the izafet. In terms of the spelling, one just has to realize that it's there? Are there any sort of clues, other than that things aren't in the normal Turkish order? Also the book glosses rüzgar here as experienced so I assume it's an adjective and I just want to confirm that the izafet is used even with adjectives, and not just noun + noun combinations?

Also, I think I asked something similar about the name Aladdin but for Nasreddin, there's the Arabic article in the middle right? And it's assimilated to the -d- because -d- is a sun letter?
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby eskandar » 2010-09-29, 4:30

I'm not very familiar with Ottoman Turkish per se (and even my modern Turkish is fairly basic) but as a Persian speaker maybe I can help a little.

modus.irrealis wrote:is it rüzgar or ruzigar?
Unless I'm missing something, روزگار is rüzgâr (or rüzgar) in modern Turkish (though it's pronounced 'ruzegâr' in Persian).

روایان اخبار و ناقلان آثار و هحدثان روزگار شویله روایت و بو یوزدن حکایت ایدرلر که
I think you have a typo-- you wrote محدثان as *هحدثان.

Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin Efendi
I think it should be "Latif Hoca Nasreddin Efendi" or possibly "Letif Hoca Nasreddin Efendi".

I have a few questions about the izafet. In terms of the spelling, one just has to realize that it's there? Are there any sort of clues, other than that things aren't in the normal Turkish order?
I don't know about Ottoman spelling here specifically but in Persian, when the ezâfe (izafet) follows a long vowel it is sometimes marked with ی (as in روی آب ru-ye âb 'on the water'). When it follows words ending in 'e' (like خانه khâne) it may be written that way (خانه‌ی بزرگ khâne-ye bozorg 'the big house') or with a hamze above the final he (خانهٔ بزرگ khâne-ye bozorg 'the big house') - there is no difference, it's just two different writing conventions. Aside from that, you just have to guess. It gets easier with time as you learn to predict where the ezâfe should go, at least in Persian.

Also the book glosses rüzgar here as experienced so I assume it's an adjective and I just want to confirm that the izafet is used even with adjectives, and not just noun + noun combinations?
Yes, the ezâfe is used to link adjectives to nouns in Persian (ex. کتاب قرمز ketâb-e qermez 'the red book', with Turkish spelling it would be kitab-ı kırmız). Is rüzgar specifically translated as 'experienced' in this sentence? I would have thought 'muhaddisan-ı rüzgar' would translate as 'the hadith specialists of the age/era' rather than 'the experienced hadith specialists' - interesting how روزگار (which means time/era/epoch, at least in modern Persian) seemingly became 'experienced' in Ottoman Turkish and then 'wind' in modern Turkish!?

Also, I think I asked something similar about the name Aladdin but for Nasreddin, there's the Arabic article in the middle right? And it's assimilated to the -d- because -d- is a sun letter?
Yep, you spelled it correctly and your explanation is also correct.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby kalemiye » 2010-09-29, 8:31

Since I don't have a computer anymore, I don't have much time to post, therefore since any Ottoman Language book includes a "crash course" on Arabic and Persian grammar I decided to post pictures of the few pages in which the ezafe is explained: http://yfrog.com/n0dsc06325ejx (it in Turkish, but it's easy to read). If you need any other specific grammar point let me know and when I have time I will post it as well.

He made a typo writing letaif (it is written as (لطایف) in ottoman script, but modus.irrealis made the right reading: letaif is the broken plural of latife, which means "joke". Letaif-i nasreddin hoca means "Jokes/Anecdotes of Nasreddin Hoca"

As for rüzgâr، it plainly means "wind", it is ruzgâr the one having the meaning of "devir, zaman" in Turkish :wink: . Nevertheless, I don't recall any of them meaning expertise :?: .

There is a typo, the first word of the second paragraph is spelled as: راویان
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-09-29, 11:35

Thank you both. I fixed the typos in my post.

eskandar wrote:Unless I'm missing something, روزگار is rüzgâr (or rüzgar) in modern Turkish (though it's pronounced 'ruzegâr' in Persian).

It's just when I search google books for this specific phrase, I find both rüzgar and rüzigar (or with u), so since that's the Persian pronunciation maybe the Ottoman pronunciation was closer to it.

Yes, the ezâfe is used to link adjectives to nouns in Persian (ex. کتاب قرمز ketâb-e qermez 'the red book', with Turkish spelling it would be kitab-ı kırmız). Is rüzgar specifically translated as 'experienced' in this sentence? I would have thought 'muhaddisan-ı rüzgar' would translate as 'the hadith specialists of the age/era' rather than 'the experienced hadith specialists' - interesting how روزگار (which means time/era/epoch, at least in modern Persian) seemingly became 'experienced' in Ottoman Turkish and then 'wind' in modern Turkish!?

With kalemiye's comment and the fact that in the Ottoman dictionaries I looked through I could find the meanings "wind" and "time/era" for the word (or words I guess), I'm thinking now that the book's gloss is just mistaken and your interpretation is right.

---

kalemiye wrote:Since I don't have a computer anymore, I don't have much time to post, therefore since any Ottoman Language book includes a "crash course" on Arabic and Persian grammar I decided to post pictures of the few pages in which the ezafe is explained: http://yfrog.com/n0dsc06325ejx (it in Turkish, but it's easy to read). If you need any other specific grammar point let me know and when I have time I will post it as well.

That was very helpful, but I'll have to go over it once more at least.

There is a typo, the first word of the second paragraph is spelled as: راویان

At least this one is not my fault :D. I was wondering why the spelling seemed so strange once I found out what the word was and why I couldn't find it in any dictionaries. There's nothing worse for a language learner than a book with typos.

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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby kalemiye » 2010-09-29, 13:14

modus.irrealis wrote:It's just when I search google books for this specific phrase, I find both rüzgar and rüzigar (or with u), so since that's the Persian pronunciation maybe the Ottoman pronunciation was closer to it.


:arrow: Rüzgâr(روزگار) = Wind
:arrow: Ruzgâr (روزگار)= time, era

To type circumflexes with a Turkish keyboard press shift + 3 and then the letter on which the circumflex will be placed :).
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-09-30, 2:05

kalemiye wrote:To type circumflexes with a Turkish keyboard press shift + 3 and then the letter on which the circumflex will be placed :).

Ah thanks. That I didn't know, but the bigger problem is that I don't even know where the circumflex should go to begin with :oops:

---

Here's the first story. Fortunately for me I had read this particular one before so it wasn't too bad...

خواجه نصرالدین افندي بر گون وعظ ایچون کرسی‌یه چیقوب ایدر اي مومنلر بن سزه نه دیه‌جگم بلورمیسکز جماعت دیرلر که خیر خواجه افندي بلمیز خواجه یا سز بلمینجه بن سزه نه سویلیه‌یم دیمش

Hoca Nasreddin Efendi bir gün vaaz için kürsiye çıkıp eyder, "Ey müminler, ben size ne diyeceğim bilir misiniz?" Cemaat derler ki "Hayır, Hoca Efendi, bilmeyiz." Hoca, "Ya, siz bilmeyince ben size ne söyleyeyim" demiş.

بر گون جواجه افندي ینه کرسی‌یه چیقوب ایدر اي مسلمانلر بن سزه نه دیه‌جکم بلورمیسکز انلرده دیرلر که بلورز خواجه یا سز بلدکدن صکره بن سزه نه سویلیه‌یم دیوب کرسیدن اشاغي اینوب چیقوب کیدنجه جماعت تعجبه واروب بردخي چیقارایسه کیمي‌مز بلورز کیمي‌مز بلمیز دیمگه قول و قرار ایلرلر

Bir gün Hoca Efendi yine kürsiye çıkıp eyder, "Ey müslümanlar, ben size ne diyeceğim bilir misiniz? Onlar da derler ki "biliriz." Hoca, "Ya, siz bildikten sonra ben size ne söyleyeyim?" deyip kürsiden aşağı inip çıkıp gidince cemaat taacübe varıp bir daha çıkar ise "kimimiz biliriz kimimiz bilmeyiz" demeye kavl-ü karar eylerler.

جواجه گینه بر گون بر منوال مشروح کرسی‌یه چیقوب ایدر اي قراندشلر بن سزه نه سویلیه‌جگم بلورمیسکز انلرده دیرلر کیمي‌مز بلورز کیمي‌مز بلمیز جواجه ایدر نه گوزل بلنلریکز بلمینلریکزه اوگرتسون

Hoca gine bır gün ber minval-ı meşruh kürsiye çıkıp eyder, "Ey karandaşlar, ben size ne söyleyeceğim bilir misiniz?" Onlar da derler "kimimiz biliriz kimimiz bilmeyiz." Hoca eyder, "Ne güzel! Bilenleriniz bilmeyenlerinize öğretsin!"

---

Did I get "kavl-ü karar" right? At first I had "kavil ve karar" but when I was googling stuff I came across that version and it seems that "ve" can be "u/ü" in certain circumstances. Is it just when you join two nouns or two adjectives? What are these certain circumstances?
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby kalemiye » 2010-09-30, 8:43

I dont have much to comment. Great job! Are you sure this two words (بلدکدنصکره) shouldn't me typed separated?

ایدر is read as "eder" ;) this is also a typo: قول د قرار those were the only mistake I could find.

Kavl-ü karar... I can't explain exactly why that is the reading, but I guess it is taken from Persian in which vav (when meaning "and") can be read as o, for instance "ketab o qalam" (kitap ve kalem); but let me look for it later in my book ;).
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-09-30, 13:25

Thanks.

kalemiye wrote:Are you sure this two words (بلدکدنصکره) shouldn't me typed separated?
They're joined in the book and I found that odd, so I separated them now.

ایدر is read as "eder" ;) this is also a typo: قول د قرار those were the only mistake I could find.

I had found "eyder" while googling (and in fact I found this whole story on google books in the modern alphabet which helped), so that's why I had it, but now I'm too lazy to change them all. This is, though, a different verb from etmek = do, right? The typo has been fixed.

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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby kalemiye » 2010-09-30, 19:15

True, you are talking about the verb "eyitmek" which is synonim of "demek". My mistake :oops: . It has the same ortography as "etmek" and this morning I read your post only superficially :oops: .
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-09-30, 23:17

No worries. So what's the best way to transliterate it? I looked the Türk Dil Kurumu site and it has all the variations ayıtmak, eyitmek, aytmak, eytmek, etmek, itmek.

I keep forgetting to ask. Why does the spelling of "hoca" have the elif in it? I can only find out that this goes back to Persian, but what significance does it have there?

---

The next anecdote was really short so I managed to write it up as well.

بر گون خواجه نصرالدین افندي ایدر اي مسلمانلر تکري تعالي‌یه چوق شکرلر ایدک که دوه‌یه قناد ویرممش اگر ویرمش اولایدي اولریکزه و یلخود باجه‌لریکزه قوناردي باشلریکزه یقاردي

Bir gün Hoca Nasreddin Efendi eyder, "Ey müslümanlar, Tanrı Teala'ya çok şükürler eydin ki deveye kanat vermemiş. Eğer vermiş olaydı evlerinize veyahut bacalarınıza konardı, başlarınıza yağardı."

---

Is "eğer vermiş olaydı" an Ottoman Turkish construction, and if so what would the modern version be? Just "verseydi"?

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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby kalemiye » 2010-09-30, 23:38

Is "eğer vermiş olaydı" an Ottoman Turkish construction, and if so what would the modern version be? Just "verseydi"?


You made me doubt here because I could remember I had seen similar structures but I couldn't recall where, so I googled it and it seems that as I thought it has currency nowdays too. I took this example from an English learning website:

I could have bought it if my father had given me the money.
Eğer babam parayı vermiş olsaydı, onu satın alabilirdim.


I keep forgetting to ask. Why does the spelling of "hoca" have the elif in it? I can only find out that this goes back to Persian, but what significance does it have there?


I have no idea :lol:. I know it's an old Persian word.

edit: I checked nişanyan's dictionary:

hoca
AtebH, MEdeb xii hwāce yaşlı kimse, koca, bir saygı hitabı

~ Fa χwāca خواجه efendi, ağa, ulu ve saygıdeğer kimse, evin büyüğü, mal sahibi

● Karş. hüda.

__________
EŞKÖKENLİLER:
Fa χwāca: hoca, koca, kocaman
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-10-02, 15:00

Thanks again.

About the Ottoman script, are final ye's supposed to have the two dots? I've been adding them because the book I'm copying from has them, but I'm starting to have some doubts about whether they're correct or not.

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بر گون ینه خواجه افندي بر شهرده کرسي‌یه چیقوب ایدر اي مسلمانلر بو شهرک هواسي ایله بزم شهرک هواسي بر ایمس جماعت دیرلر که خواجه افندي ندن بیلدکز خواجه ایدر آقشهرده بقاردم نقدر یلدزلر وار ایسه بونده ده اوقدر وار

Bir gün yine Hoca Efendi bir şehirde kürsiye çıkıp eyder, "Ey Müslümanlar, bu şehrin havası ile bizim şehrin havası bir imiş." Cemaat derler ki, "Hoca Efendi, neden bildiniz?" Hoca eyder, "Akşehir'de bakardım ne kadar yıldızlar var ise bunda da o kadar var."

---

For "imiş", the meaning here is something like "it seems this city's air and our city's air is the same" or "this city's air .... must be the same", right?

For "ise", here it's just used sort of like a conjunction, right, to join the two parts of the phrase?

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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby kalemiye » 2010-10-02, 17:18

No, they are not supposed to have ye, but it the book was typed with an Arabic press then that's why it has it, but it's not important ;).

-imis its always "seems", afaik it never has the connotation of "must".

As for "ise", it is a conjunction but it normally has a conditional meaning. To tell the truth, I am not sure i am understanding the sentence correctly, so i will ask around later :).
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby Mert » 2010-10-02, 17:57

modus.irrealis wrote:
For "ise", here it's just used sort of like a conjunction, right, to join the two parts of the phrase?


If you want to emphasize something or someone, you can use "ise". But it is necessary that the word which you'll emphasize with "ise" should have a connection with the previous sentences:

Emre evde, Ayşe ise daha gelmedi.

Emre is at home, Ayşe hasn't come yet.

İse in the above sentence gives that meaning to the sentence: "Emre is at home. If you ask where Ayşe is, she hasn't come yet".

Is it clear? :D
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-10-02, 18:49

kalemiye wrote:No, they are not supposed to have ye, but it the book was typed with an Arabic press then that's why it has it, but it's not important ;).

But without is easier to type on the Windows Persian keyboard :D.

-imis its always "seems", afaik it never has the connotation of "must".

I meant "must" in something like

-- Emre burada değil = Emre's not here.
-- O halde evdeymiş = then he must be at home.

I thought you could say this, but is this incorrect then?

---

Mert wrote:Is it clear? :D

Your example is very clear, but I'm still not sure about the sentence above :oops:, since the "ise" comes after "var". How would you translate or rephrase the sentence?

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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby Mert » 2010-10-02, 19:12

modus.irrealis wrote:
I meant "must" in something like

-- Emre burada değil = Emre's not here.
-- O halde evdeymiş = then he must be at home.

I thought you could say this, but is this incorrect then?


"-miş gives the meaning of hearing something from someone. "O halde evdeymiş" sounds weird. :? You must say like that: "O halde evde olmalı".

---

modus.irrealis wrote:
Your example is very clear, but I'm still not sure about the sentence above :oops:, since the "ise" comes after "var". How would you translate or rephrase the sentence?


I suppose you mean "varsa, var ise".

The "sa" and "ise" suffixes mean "if" there. Varsa means "if there is(are)"
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby kalemiye » 2010-10-02, 19:34

I suppose you mean "varsa, var ise".

The "sa" and "ise" suffixes mean "if" there. Varsa means "if there is(are)"


Thank you Mert!! :)
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-10-02, 19:35

Mert wrote:"-miş gives the meaning of hearing something from someone. "O halde evdeymiş" sounds weird. :? You must say like that: "O halde evde olmalı".

Thanks for clearing that up.

I suppose you mean "varsa, var ise".

The "sa" and "ise" suffixes mean "if" there. Varsa means "if there is(are)"

Even in the sentence "Akşehir'de bakardım ne kadar yıldızlar var ise bunda da o kadar var"? At first I thought it was like how question word + -sa = -ever in English, and it would be something like "however many stars I would see in Akşehir, there are also that many here" but wouldn't that be something like "Akşehir'de ne kadar yıldızlar bakarsam bunda da o kadar var"? I'm still not sure what's going on.

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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby Mert » 2010-10-03, 14:45

modus.irrealis wrote:
Even in the sentence "Akşehir'de bakardım ne kadar yıldızlar var ise bunda da o kadar var"?

At first I thought it was like how question word + -sa = -ever in English, and it would be something like "however many stars I would see in Akşehir, there are also that many here" but wouldn't that be something like

"Akşehir'de ne kadar yıldızlar bakarsam bunda da o kadar var"? I'm still not sure what's going on.


"Akşehir'de bakardım ne kadar yıldızlar var ise, bunda da o kadar var"

"I used to look at how many stars there are in Akşehir. There are as many stars as here, too".

P.s.

Ne kadar + isim(singular): After "ne kadar", it isn't true to use a plural noun.

By the way, the main Turkish sentence is an inverted one. That sounds weird a bit. That's better like that:

"Akşehir'de ne kadar yıldız varsa, bakardım. Burada da o kadar var"
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Re: Ottoman Texts - Letaif-i Hoca Nasreddin

Postby modus.irrealis » 2010-10-06, 2:03

Mert wrote:"Akşehir'de bakardım ne kadar yıldızlar var ise, bunda da o kadar var"

"I used to look at how many stars there are in Akşehir. There are as many stars as here, too".

You mean "as many stars as that here, too" right?

I still don't understand why the "-sa" is there :oops: but I'll just have to learn it as a new construction.

---

I copied down the next story and there are many things I'm not sure of.

خواجه بر گون حمامه گیرر بقار که کیمسه یوق جانی صقیلوب قیه‌باشی‌یه سویلمگه باشلر

Hoca bir gün hamama girer, bakar ki kimse yok, canı sıkılıp kayabaşıya söylemeğe başlar.

خواجه‌یه صداسی خوش گلوب کندی کندویه دیر که چونکه بنم بویله خوب صدام واردر خلق دخی صقالنه

Hocaya sedası hoş gelip kendi kendüye der ki, "Çünkü benim böyle hob sedam vardır, halk dahi sakalına."

فی‌الحال حمامدن چیقوب طوغری بر مناره‌یه چیقوب وقتلرده اویله وقتی ایمش تمجید اوقومغه باشلر

Filhal hamamdan çıkıp, doğru bir minareye çıkıp, vakitlerde öğle vakti imiş, temcit okumağa başlar.

بر آدم اشاغیدن یوقاری بقر گورر که بر حریف مناره‌ده وقتسز تمجید اوقور ایدر بهی نادان سنده بویله کریه آوازیله وقتسز تمجید اوقویورسون

Bir adam aşağıdan yukarı bakar, görer ki bir herif minarede vakitsiz temcit okur, eyder, "Behey nadan, sen de böyle kerih avaz ile vakitsiz temcit okuyorsun."

همان خواجه اشاغی اینوب ایدر آه نه اولیدی بر صاحب خیر بوراده بر حمام یاپه ‌ایدی ده بزی بو کریه آوازدن قورتاره ‌ایدی

Heman Hoca asağı inip eyder, "Ah ne olaydı bir sahib-i hayr burada bir hamam yapa idi da bizi bir kerih avazden kurtara idi."

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I can't find the word "kayabaşı" anywhere -- the book glosses it as "bathman" but I just want to verify if that's correct.

Is "kendüye" an older form? I'd expect "kendine" here, but I can't get that from the Arabic script.

Did I transliterate "halk dahi sakalına" correctly? And in either case, what does this mean?

And finally, usually I get the point of the Nasreddin stories, but not with this one. Anybody willing to explain it to me?


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